Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. What you describe is nothing like what I believe nor anyone I know believes. (for the record.). 3680 / C (Canadian Dollars) Wilfred Laurier University (Waterloo Lutheran Seminary) Lutheran. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. They never want to explain why what they believe brings God more glory than what you believe. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. (Also, it would mean that God forced people to sin, since some of our thoughts, words, and deeds, are sinful. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. Cant wait to read the comments section of Dees forthcoming post to Calvinists. First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. And yes, theology would say that God permitting evil gives us a chance to to good, but thats a hollow thing to tell a rape victim. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. When theology is inaccessible, it is not because God himself is inaccessible, but because it is expressed using made-up words whose meaning is known only to the in-crowd. It does mean that Calvinist and non-Calvinist Christians alike will have a far more difficult time sitting under the Word of God together when both sides appeal to the nuclear arsenal of the World Wide Web. I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. Just want you to know that Im keeping your son-in-law in my prayers. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong. Notwithstanding, non-Calvinist Bible commentaries have largely become marginalized in our present day, with large Christian book publishers simply refusing to print them. Everything. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. Churches that sever the root of truth may seem to flourish for a season, but they will wither soon, or turn into something besides a Christian church. Ask a lot of questions. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. This is fine too, and actually more pleasant for everyone. I think a better question would be: Why should He want to stop me? I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! Might we call what youre describing love? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. We need well-rounded meals, small and frequent, in a quiet warm kitchen with loads of kindness. This was no emotional, short term thing. Which of us sat down in total ignorance, started at Genesis, and came up with a belief system? As leader of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands he served as Prime Minister of his country from 1901 to 1905. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. If it does, then Im find with that. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. /r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. I notedthat this man often appeared angry to me and blew him off, deciding he was dealing with something in his life. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. I could not. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. I will never forget hearing so many Christians actually try to reason that we have to accept, even rejoice, that this must have been Gods plan for these precious young people. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. I didnt really love Him then, either, He always seemed so distant. Systematic Theology Comparison Chart. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. We can connect on our shared faith and heart for the abused. Study some good books that present the non-Calvinist point of view. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed, every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. Such arrogance!! I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. If this is so, its really astounding. Its like asking the old question: Can God create a rock to heavy for Him to throw? Im just genuinely puzzled about this. Many of us come from heavy Calvinist backgrounds, have studied the confessions and the institutes, and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions.. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Almost every theological viewpoint, and every Christian denomination, has a corresponding Systematic Theology book that reflects their positions on different topics of Scripture. It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. Often, along with inviting non-Calvinists to just "read the Bible," Calvinists like to type out longs lists of Bible quotes which the Calvinists thinks proves and defends the Calvinistic system of theology. Inevitably, then, youll sometimes find restless young men who want to make a name for themselves (and who hasnt been there) (other than restless young women) will take the idea and make it a point of honour to run as far as they can with it. (It had seemed strange to pay for a gift. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. Seconding Numo, there are seats left at my table. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. I am a non-Calvinist (not quite an Arminian either) who lives and moves and has my being amongst Calvinists, the overwhelmingly dominant brand in my neck of the woods. Of course you are. In some respects we all do that. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. I really did exercise power when I tossed that piece of chalk; God did not throw it for me. Hes describing man, not God. . Like you, I only care about what scripture says. I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. Calvins instituted Christian Religion is very much a place for the wise and learned, and hidden from little children. Thank you for helping me out. To claim Were doing well so we must be righteous is banal theological incompetence. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. In this video, Jesse Morrell refutes the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin. I agree with that perspective as well. I didn't know what I should read first as I attempted to learn more. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. I find it troubling too. Dark times. I have never doubted the existence and presence of Jesus in my life. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. Just happy to be able to trust that God really is good again. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. We studied together, looked at what I think is a really good representation of what I (and my church) believes, and he rejects it. I will pray for him a lot in the coming days! I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. Jimmy Draper. I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. A hearty AMEN numo. As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. He is still in a leadership position within the church. Especially the statements above. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. But that isnt enough. Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. Instead of debating, try to learn from the other person. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, (You must log in or sign up to post here. First of all, I agree with what Jeff S wrote about the word leaders. Also, even if I considered someone a leader, I dont march in lockstep with him/her. Even just lurking at blogs or forums and watching people debate the topic, Id see this come up a lot, where most Calvinists would claim that the one criticizing, or questioning, Calvinism doesnt understand Calvinism. Yet Calvin (and Luther Im Lutheran) were fallible and sometimes very sinful men. They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by bjonson, Jan 10, 2006. http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn1.htm, http://www.thebereancall.org/Search_Search.aspx?SectionID=1359&search=calvin, http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/calvinismmain.html, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm, http://www.swrb.ab.ca/newslett/actualNLs/RHNarmin.htm. His attitude impresses me. The list consists of 89 members. Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. Enter fatalistic determinism. I know. For what its worth, Darcyjo, you have my respect as is deserved by a soldier in the front line of what Patricia King calls the Love War. I do think though, there is a difference between a Calvinist and a Calvinista. Just a few thoughts for you. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. Groovy, man. Jesus wept. As I have stated, I do try to be sensitive and let people vent. Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! Yes, Jeff S. It is important to try and balance the need to have a voice and going too vitriolic. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. Once we start playing the salvation game, the battle becomes nasty. I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? But even more enigmatic is how man, being inexorably morally corrupt compared to God is never in a position to even KNOW the difference, since KNOWING good from evil implies that man can actually, of himself, wholly apart from God, freely embrace by his WILL the TRUTH of what is good, or reject it. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! They equate Calvinism as spiritually intellectual stuff and non-Calvinist theology as far below reformed doctrine. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved. Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? B. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. I was blessed to be in some wonderful, intellectually stimulating churches. @dee, Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. What content does your faith have? It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? Ryrie, Rice, Wesley, WE Vine, Geisler, and RA Torrey come to mind as non-calvinists who I personally find thoughtful, sound theologians who happen to disagree with me on this very fine issue of theology. Its all up to God. Hmm Apostles and Nicene, indeedy-do. But I think you have said that you have never read The Institutes. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. You should consider it though it is a pretty long video. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about . They simply describe the regular, normal way in which God manages or governs his universe. G. Campbell Morgan 16. I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. This item can do it all and do it all the better than the rest. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. Does not compute. At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. I understand that, and I certainly dont look down on you. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. @ Katie: He discusses the rogue molecule that people bring up here a lot and says that if a single molecule where outside of Gods power, then it could thwart his will. We have a question for you? Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. If we get to where we can podcast, Ill drop you a link. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. Yet not one of them will read Is God to Blame by Greg Boyd, let alone sit and discuss the verses in question (Exploring what Gods sovereignity really means, based on scripture). Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. Im talking about TULIP. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 Ill have to look that one up. I disagree. [1] [2] Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. Im glad you brought this up, though, I probably need to put a disclaimer on the Calvin Free-For-All post. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Glad to have someone who gets my background! God can do that. I think that is why it is good that Dee/Deb use the term Cavinista.

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